271: Leaning In: Navigating Leadership, Authenticity, and Growth as Women in Tech with Leila Kassner

Toni Collis:

Welcome back to the leading women in tech podcast. Today we’re diving into a conversation that I think so many of you will relate to, whether you’re in the early stages of your career or already in the C-suite. We’re talking about authentic leadership, career growth, and what it really takes to navigate senior leadership as a woman in tech without burning out or compromising who you are. To help us explore this, I’m joined by the brilliant Leila Kassner.

Leila is the Chief Operating Officer at Boku, a global leader in localised payment solutions. Over her 18 years in the payments industry, she’s held senior roles across the telco and mobile payment spaces, and for the last 11 years, she’s been a driving force behind Boku’s growth and global partnerships, working with names like Meta, Microsoft, Amazon, Netflix, yes, that kind of global leadership. This is the woman we’re talking to today.

But beyond her impressive resume, what I love about Leila and why I wanted to bring her on the show is how grounded, human and honest she is about what it takes to rise, to advocate for yourself and still lead with heart and soul. She’s also a dedicated advocate for gender equity in the workplace and we definitely touch on that. She’s a working mother and someone who deeply cares about making space for the next generation of women leaders. So if you’re ready to hear what leaning in really looks like and how to build a leadership journey rooted in ambition, and wellbeing, this one’s for you. Let’s dive on in.

Toni Collis:

Welcome to the show, Leila. It’s great to have you here. Let’s dive straight on in. I would love for you to tell us about your journey from account manager to COO at Boku in just over a decade and all under 40 as well. Walk us through those key moments, the decisions that have taken you to where you are today, the decisions that have led you on this journey.

Leila Kassner:

I think when I look back, actually, it’s quite a long journey. I sort of fell into this career, actually. I trained as a journalist and accepted a job in marketing at a company that was in payments at the time. It was all about ringtones and grainy images that you’d download to your Nokia. That was the world I came into. But that really helped me over those, I think it was around four and a half years to understand how a small business works, the inner workings, the revenue, the relationship building, how to manage a team. And it was a steep learning curve. I wouldn’t say it was necessarily easy and it was a little bit of toxic environment, I have to say. But that helped in its own way to then realize the kind of things that you’re up against in your career, in your early career.

And then from there, I moved into being on the aggregated side, the PSP side. And that brought a whole new world of learning because it’s very different when you’re servicing merchants than when you are a merchant yourself.

Toni Collis:

What is the PSP aggregator? For those of us who don’t know.

Leila Kassner:

So an aggregator is a company that sits in between your merchant and your payment methods. So a merchant would connect to you and then you connect out to all of the different payment methods. In my world, local payment methods. So that connects to all of the carriers, all the local wallets, et cetera. And so rather than your merchants having to go out there and connect to however many hundreds there are in the world, you can connect to someone like an aggregator who will then connect you out to all of those yourself. So that’s the world that I went into. So I moved from being on the client side to being at an aggregator who was specific to the UK market. And that was working with charities, a lot of them, I’m sure everyone will know, the likes of Save the Children and Children in Need, many others, and lots of competitions with BOW Radio and ITV, Channel 5, that kind of thing. And That was really exciting for me because I got to work with some brilliant people, not only at the company that I was with, but with the clients themselves. And that really helped my learning and understanding of what matters to these merchants. And it meant that something new happened every day. It was never the same thing and you never clock watching. was pretty fast paced.

And then I moved into Boku and that really changed the direction of my career. And that was around 11 years ago now. And at the time, Boku was well known, well trusted in the UK and that really appealed. It was privately funded, it was a small startup and that was the kind of environment that I really, really wanted to get into. And that was a real pivotal moment. Not that I knew it at the time, but that was a real pivotal moment.

And I joined there to set up an account management team, a global account management team didn’t really exist. We had no frameworks, no standardized ways of working with anyone. was a startup, right? We were brilliant at sales, not so good at the AM side. And so for me, that challenge, that opportunity to make something of my own and use my kind of thought leadership, I was still young.

I was still very young at that stage, but you know, it was a good foundation to really kickstart my career. And from there, it was just leaning into any challenge, any point that the company needed to grow or evolve. We were doing more, working with bigger clients. I just, I loved it. And so I just put myself out there, which, you know, in those early days when I wasn’t married, I didn’t have kids, it was super easy because that was everything I wanted to do.

And then it changed because I did have a family. And that gave me a whole different perspective. So yeah, I would say, you know, it’s been a whirlwind journey, one with many challenges, but if you see those challenges as opportunities, then it becomes something that’s quite exciting and you just want to do more of it.

Toni Collis:

one of the things that I always think is interesting, you say, you thought you were quite young, but at the end of the day, this company, gave you the responsibility of being the person setting up a global account management team. What do you think it was that they saw in you, benefit of hindsight maybe? What did they see in you at the time to do that?

Leila Kassner:

That’s a great question. think it was my judgment and the fact that I spoke with knowledge having been on the merchant side and then experience being, know, servicing merchants. That’s very different. But because I’d done both, I could pull on that to help my experience in setting up what I know I needed as a merchant.

But what I then knew that other merchants needed in the industry from a company like Boku in order to be successful. But also just, know, it’s always a challenge when you’re trying to do both. You’re trying to balance the needs of your clients with the needs of the business. And those don’t always marry up. And so it’s having that balance and that judgment and that commitment to, you know, doing the best for both is really important.

And I think they must have seen that I was very passionate about it and very driven in wanting to succeed. So I’ve always got something to say about it.

Toni Collis:

Yeah. Well, what are we going ask that is like, what took you from, you know, coming into this global account management team to today, the COO at Boku? What did you, what are the qualities? What are the habits? What has contributed to that progression into senior leadership?

Leila Kassner:

I think fundamentally, when I’m enjoying something and when I feel very passionate about something, I want to learn as much as possible, both about what matters in the company, but what’s happening within the merchant. so building that really solid foundation of information, facts, context, helps you then to give better judgment and make better decisions on what we should be doing as a company to do better, to be better.

So I think that fundamentally really mattered. I was always the voice of the customer. People always saw me as that. And while, yes, I was very much on the commercial side managing the partnerships and the relationships, it touches every part of the company. Every part of the company is responsible for growing the revenue to maintaining the relationship with those clients.

And so people would look to me for that advice, that guidance, you know, I’ll be positioning this correctly. How could we be better? How can we ensure the value that we’re giving at every stage of that journey is the best that we could be doing? And so I became known for that across the business. But then just more broadly, I think, you know, I’ve always fought to be very calm and cool, particularly when the world is on fire. You know, people look to me for that steady, and let’s be solution oriented, how do we figure this out? Anything can happen. You can’t control it all. Let’s take a breath. Let’s figure out what’s gone wrong. Let’s figure out how we move forward and then let’s learn from it. That’s always been my kind of style. And I think that’s helped people to gravitate towards me in that things happen all the time, every day, right? And so I think people saw me as that kind of, yeah, that voice of reason that Even if it was nothing to do with a client, they could still come to me and say, this is happening. Can you give me some advice? And I would do my best to support them. Those are probably the main things.

Toni Collis:

So that’s really interesting. you think, benefit of hindsight again, do you think you made the case primarily to be COO or do you think somebody else did it for you or was it a real true mixture?

Leila Kassner:

So I think looking back last year, you know, I had to come back into the business after having my daughter, I’d been back for a good three years or so doing a very similar role to the one that I left behind. I say similar because things change at Boku every year. It’s slightly different. And so I’ve not been doing the same thing for years. And I think I was just getting a little bit sort of, I want more. I feel like I’ve got more to give. I’ve got you know, I want to share more at a senior level, you know, to help guide and direct the business. And I felt like I had more to give, but I wasn’t sure how to do more because of the space that I was in. And so we had very open conversations about it, you know, with my boss at the time, but also with Stuart, our CEO, about, you know, where the company’s going and what more I could be doing. And then, and we’ve not had a COO for a number of years, and that was right for us at the time. but strengthening the business by having that cross-functional leadership now was about the right time and Stuart was thinking about it. And so the conversations kind of stemmed from there, but I wouldn’t necessarily say that I ever set out to say, I’m going to be a COO one day. That was just, that’s not my style. I tend to focus on what’s happening now and doing that well, and then see how I can grow from there. So it came from both sides, I think.

Toni Collis:

I think that one of the key things there is even if you don’t set out to be this one thing, right? I think what’s very clear from your story is you advocated for yourself. You said, hey, what about I do this? Even if it wasn’t in the planning for five years, you weren’t quiet. I think that’s something that so many of us struggle with. I think you do need advocates. You need allies. You need people who can see it and say yes. But at the same time, I think sometimes you have to show that

You’re the one who wants it as much as you’re the one that’s ready for it. I think we’re so afraid of doing that, which brings me to our next topic, which is women leaning out of conversations at work. When you and I first met, we talked about this quite a lot. You saw, you see, in fact, quite a lot of women leaning out when they should be leaning in. What do you mean by this? And when did you start noticing it?

Leila Kassner:

Yes, I mean, it was probably in my second job. We had a workshop for all the women in the company, which was centered around the book Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. And we all got a copy. And it was one of those days where you think, OK, you know, this is just something that they feel like they need to be doing. I hadn’t realized it was going to have such a profound effect on me.

Now, when I read something or I talk to someone about my career or leadership or anything to do with work, sometimes there are little things that are said that just stick and they stick in my head for a very long time. And this book was one of them. Now, I mean, it’s very detailed and it’s quite heavy, but there are key themes in it that really sat with me and have done throughout the rest of my career. And it’s all about how women unconsciously will lean out of conversations or whether physically or just shutting themselves down mentally or emotionally and not having that equal seat at the table. And because I then participated in this workshop and then read the book, I thought to myself, well, how I do this all the time and I don’t even realize it. So I was going into large meetings with all sorts of leadership or with clients. And instead of sitting at the table, I was physically sitting on the edge, the periphery, rather than taking your place at the table, because you unconsciously think, oh, I’m going to save that for senior people or whatever. And so I started to correct myself and sit down at the table. Why not? Why not be there? But beyond that, it’s about being more present in those conversations. And I’ve seen it happen almost on a daily basis, even at places like Boku, which is very, open and very forward thinking around this kind of thing, it still happens there. And I have seen actually there was one example I’ll walk you through. was a subject matter expert in the room and I will call her that because she was and she was giving her opinion and her thoughts and advice on something that we were working through. And she was being challenged by more senior males in the room and being challenged again and then again and then again.

And because I was sitting opposite her, I saw her physically sit back and she just closed off and I could see it in her face. And I thought, you’re done. She’d got to the point where she was like, if you’re not going to listen to me, I’m going to protect myself and remove myself from this conversation. 

Toni Collis:

I mean, just to jump in there, this is one of my criticisms of Lien. I think the Lien book has done so many amazing things for giving women the reasons to step up. But my biggest criticism of it is it is about making women fit into a man’s world. And what we should be doing is making the world more accepting to women. We should be able to give our opinion and be treated with respect.

So just to give that poor lady the benefit of the doubt, I applaud her for standing her ground as long as she did that story, since I think so many of us have experienced that and I coach so many women through that. But unfortunately, what I’m, what I am doing is coaching them to deal with a man’s world, whereas actually what we need to do is change the world. So I just interject that there, yeah.

Leila Kassner:

Absolutely. No, absolutely. And this is why it’s challenging, right? Because you can have a voice, you can lean in, you can make yourself heard. But if someone doesn’t want to listen, there’s nothing that you can do about it. And we’ve all I do, I still do it now. Sometimes just go, you know what, I’m done with this conversation because you’re not hearing me. So we need to pick up at another point. And while you can have and we do have allies in the room who will often step forward and say,

I actually want to listen to what she’s saying or, you know, I support her decision, you know, I support what she’s saying. That allyship is incredibly important, but it doesn’t happen all of the time. And I did actually speak with this lady afterwards and I first and foremost, I said, are you okay? Because that was emotionally charged. You know, there was a lot that we need to talk about. Are you all right? And you could, you could see that she was not. And it really, I felt for her in that moment because

There’s nothing that she could have done differently. But it was a very real example of someone going, I’m removing myself from this because you’re not hearing me. And that’s a form of protecting yourself. Right. So it’s yeah, it’s very hard and it happens daily.

Toni Collis:

Yeah, it’s such a shame. It’s such a shame. Do you see it happening with men as well? Obviously we talk about it as a phenomenon. And I think you were very, very clear there that part of the issue is when we feel, you know, I need to stay safe. I’m going to remove myself from this, right? And there is a different threshold on average, mass generalization, but there is a different threshold for that safety for men and women. But do you see men do the same thing when they’re put in the same situation?

Leila Kassner:

I think so. Definitely not with the same frequency. And I think less so in the industry that I’m in, to be quite honest. But yes, I do think that you see men do it as well. And it’s definitely not just something that is for females, but I think that threshold is different. And also, know, men typically have stronger, louder voices. And so if you’re in a large room and you’re all talking and everyone’s trying to, you know, it’s a lot harder for a softly spoken female who’s got a lot to say to be heard. And I’ve had to get used to that, you know, in a room full of men to, I physically put my hand up and say, can you please let me talk? Because otherwise you don’t, you know, you don’t get in there, but it’s exhausting doing that all of the time.

Toni Collis:

Yeah. It is, it is. It is absolutely exhausting and I think that’s one of the reasons why I think it’s so powerful to have allies in the room. So let’s talk about some of the things you mentioned there that you’ve, you know, had to say, hold on, I would like to finish. What are the tactics that you found effective for stepping up yourself, but also for inviting others to step up?

Leila Kassner:

So fundamentally it’s making sure that I’m physically at the table. You know, if you are in a large meeting and people are having to sit around the edge, I will always ensure that I’m there early enough to be seated at the table because your physical presence does make a difference. I do find the, you please let me speak or can you please let someone else finish talking? Because I want to hear what that person says is incredibly important.

Those tend to be the things that I speak to, but sometimes there are instances when I think to myself, they’re not hearing me. And so there is, there’s no point continuing this conversation now. And so I will then not and circle back with them later, either one-on-one in a different environment to say, you know, when you were speaking about that, I didn’t agree. And this is why, because I find often, especially when you’re talking about challenging things, you know, when people start to bring their emotions into business where you shouldn’t, it happens, we’re all human. I find sometimes it’s better not to tackle the person then and there where they may feel emotionally charged. There’s lots of people around, so they might feel embarrassed or challenged unfairly. It’s better to just stop and tackle it separately. And that has helped me over the years.

Toni Collis:

I mean, what I would advocate definitely for you, for others listening as a coach is something I get. Anybody who’s an executive that I work with, I fully advocate that we do. Because I’m going to ask you in a minute about cultural change, Bokeh, and what you’ve been doing, because there’s some cool things you’ve been doing, I know. I hugely think that one of the things we have a duty as women in executive leadership positions is to call this out with kindness. I don’t think I genuinely believe men have no idea they’re doing it. I think the majority of men are decent humans and they don’t realize what they’re doing. And so the only way this is going to shift is if we call it out. And so I agree with you of like stepping back and saying that, you know, basically we’ll deal with that later to bring the situation down, but you have to, I personally think we have to actually state this is unproductive conversation. Let’s continue this at a later date because otherwise they think women just give up and that’s an unconscious thing. They don’t rationally say that, look, she’s given up, yay, I’ve won. I don’t think, again, I think the best of men, but that is the unconscious messaging we’re giving. We need to assert this is unproductive. This is not the culture we’re going to live in. Let’s pause this for now. If we don’t signal that, whether it’s on our own behalf or somebody else’s behalf, we aren’t impacting the cultural change that the world needs. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried that one.

Leila Kassner:

I, as you say, it’s not about winning or losing and it’s not about winning an argument or having the last word. But I have got more comfortable, I would say, now than before. you know, I could never imagine 10 years ago sitting in a meeting and saying, this is not healthy, we need to just stop and circle back to this. I would never have done that then. I would never have felt.

It was my position to do so, which is obviously not correct. Anyone can do that. But now I feel responsible for being able to say that, you know, because it’s not productive and we’re wasting time. You know, I will happily say, you know, we need to, we need to take a pause. Let’s come back to this at another point. But that’s, yeah, that’s a learned habits rather than feeling comfortable doing that. You know, as I say, 10 years ago.

Toni Collis:

I don’t think it ever feels comfortable, ever. Maybe it does for some people, but I think for me, the women I coach, I don’t think it ever feels comfortable. I think it’s so unnatural to us, whether that’s nature or nurture. Is this because we’ve been indoctrinated our entire lives to be seen and not heard and make men comfortable, make everybody comfortable? That’s what women are told to do. Is that why it’s not? It will never feel comfortable, I don’t know, but it doesn’t. What it becomes is less stressful, I think, is a way of putting it, right? Yeah.

Leila Kassner:

Yes, that’s a great way of putting it. And I actually, I don’t like stressful situations. And so I would rather pause the conversation to reduce that stress and make myself feel uncomfortable in flagging it to say, you know, we need to stop than to allow the stress to continue because I don’t like people feeling that way. And particularly at work, because, you know, it’s, we’re all there for a very long time, many hours, you know, away from children and Working in that kind of toxic environment isn’t cool. It wastes a lot of energy.

Toni Collis:

Yeah, I’d love to dive into that with you more, because I feel like my little coach’s hat is like, let’s talk about that stress. Let’s talk about that. But I’ve got so many other things I want to ask you about. So let’s like keep focused here. Let’s talk about cultural change, because I know that Boku has done a lot for the advancement of women. Obviously, you yourself are COO, which you could argue is an advancement for women. But I would argue you’ve done that for yourself. But you have a culture that has enabled that. So tell me a little bit about

What do you think is a bit different about Boku? What have you done as a company to improve the work environment, even when women feel outnumbered, overshadowed, what have you done?

Leila Kassner:

So for me, one of the reasons I’ve stayed at Boku so long is because of the culture. You know, as I said, when you’re away from your children, from other things, you spend so much time there, you need to be getting something from it. And I enjoy working with those people. We are across, what is it now, 34 different countries, and that helps us to be culturally diverse. These markets are all different, yet we all work together every single day. And so we have a you know, a unique position to be able to work with these different cultures, these different people. And I would like to think that people see that openness and don’t limit themselves as a result. I’ve been very, very lucky in that we’ve had, I’ve had good allies, male allies who have helped to create space and helped to challenge and help to encourage and empower.

in all the right ways, sometimes the wrong ways, but you know, as I say, everyone’s human. And that has helped me to grow in that confidence and take on those challenges. If Boku didn’t have that as part of its culture, I would not be where I am. Of course, I’m ambitious and I’ve pushed myself to achieve that and step into those roles, but you need that space to also be created. We have a lot of learning development programs.

We take International Women’s Month very seriously. We do a lot of activity and programmes through that, not just for women, but for men too, so that they can understand more and, you know, because we need their support. So we do an awful lot of that. It’s very important. The DEI space is very important to us as a company. But of course, any company could be doing more, right? There’s always more that we could be doing to support that. But it feels very special to me.

And I feel very honored to kind of be demonstrating to other women in the business that you can get there. You don’t have to limit yourself, you know, that you can achieve it. And I take that sort of additional role quite seriously. And that’s why I’m particularly passionate about it because I feel eyes on me. That sounds a bit weird, but I feel like people are watching, you know, watching the journey, watch how I behave, you know, what I say, how I support other people that feels incredibly real and important. So I’m hoping that as a company we continue on that path, particularly now I’m able to influence it even more in the new role that I’m in.

Toni Collis:

Yeah, yeah. think one of the things that’s really striking to me here is that you feel that you have a place here, that you feel, I mean, it’s a big company now. It’s a culturally diverse company and you are feeling supported, you are feeling heard, you are feeling that you’ve got, see the table. At the end of the day, one thing that stands out to me is that you felt able to stand up and say, how about making me COO? Because ultimately that’s how these things happen that speaks something. I think it’s also something just to call out you know we’re living in an age where internationally it is becoming less politically acceptable, not acceptable that’s not quite the right word something politically something to focus on and DEI and Boku’s not shying away from that. Boku is still going no this is this is good for us because it is at the end of the day we all know this the data says the more diverse and inclusive you are the better your revenue and profits right it shouldn’t be rocket science but It’s become less focused in the last 36 months. Let’s go with that, shall we? Across the world, the UK here where you and I recording, the US where a lot of my audience are in particular, there is both countries, politicians are saying we shouldn’t fund that and companies are there for going, we need to make politicians happy. So why do you think Boku’s different? Why are you still standing on ground as a company on this?

Leila Kassner:

I think ultimately it’s because we want people to come to work and be their true selves. You know, that’s the kind of company that we are. It does make a difference. You don’t want to be coming to work every day and being someone else. You know, if you’re not being a true self, you’re not getting the best out of yourself at work. And so if we embrace that, it seems obvious. It seems so obvious. But how many people are just acting a role or don’t feel like it’s their safe space or just going through the motions in order to do a job and earn some money, but it’s not where they feel their true self. And that’s really sad for me. And so we’ve embraced it. We want people, we are investing in people to be the best that they can be, because that’s good for them and it’s good for us. And so it seems obvious, I don’t know why everyone’s not doing it frankly, regardless of what’s going on there in the world, you know, this is, this is what makes Boku Boku. And I hope that we never lose that because it is, it is pretty special.

Toni Collis:

I love that. Okay, one final question before we move on to the quick fire round. What do you wish you’d known 15 years ago about your career, about leadership, about balancing ambition and wellbeing? What do you wish you’d known?

Leila Kassner:

Oh, I wish I had known that I could get there by just being myself, that I had a lot of value to bring without needing to worry so much or be a perfectionist or go so far above and beyond that you’re just exhausted. know, I mean,

Age hindsight, right? It’s easy to go, from this position where I am now, I wish I didn’t worry so much. And I wish I didn’t work myself into the ground and, you know, second guessed myself and all of that. It’s easy to say when you’re older and, you know, coming from a place of contentment. But I just think of all the wasted energy, you know, the the the toxic thoughts, the the being wrapped up in my own space. If I’d have applied that to what I was trying to do, I’d have been happier, you know, more content more quickly. But, you know, it’s easy for me to say that now when I have two children and, you know, my husband’s very supportive and helps with that, you you need to think about it in this way and frame it that way. You know, I didn’t have the luxury of that when I was younger. So, yeah, I think I just wish that I believed in myself a bit more and didn’t put so much pressure on my shoulders. You know, I always

I remember thinking to myself, oh Leela, you’re a generalist. You’re kind of all right at things, but I never had that. And I remember saying to my mum, mum, I don’t have that one thing that I’m brilliant at. You you’re a brilliant pianist, you’re brilliant at maths, I never had that. I wish I had realised what I did have was so much softer, so much more emotional. You know, it’s that, it’s the power of those relationships that you can build with people and what that means and the impact that you can have on someone’s career and life and, you know, having an emotional high, a high emotional IQ, essentially. I didn’t realise any of that. And so I didn’t realise that was my superpower until a lot later in my career. So, wow, I wish I’d known that.

Toni Collis:

Yeah, I love that, I love that so much. Well, let’s move on to the quick fire round. You ready for this?

What’s the worst piece of advice you’ve ever been given?

Leila Kassner:

you know what that’s a really hard question. I do get I get a lot of advice that I don’t ask for over years but I have to admit I’m fairly dismissive. That’s not dismissive of advice I’ve taken a lot of great advice but I don’t remember a single piece of advice where I’ve gone well that’s a load of shit I’m not listening to you but I think I do it a lot.

Toni Collis:

You know what? You know what though? I think that that’s the first time that somebody’s ever said that to me and I fully applaud it. I fully applaud it because I think you’re spot on. I think we do get so much shit advice. Especially as women we’re told everything right? And I’ve never had somebody, I mean maybe they’ve all just thought really hard like what have I been told? Right? It’s my favourite question to ask. I feel like at some point I should write a book on all the bad advice we’ve given us women. It’d be a great book, wouldn’t it? But I’ve never heard somebody say, don’t, I don’t listen. I just, just goes, and that is, that is one of the best pieces of advice I could give somebody is be okay with just ignoring the shit advice. Yeah. Lump. Yeah. Love that. All right. Well, have you got a best piece of advice?

Leila Kassner:

Yeah, there’s so much of it over the years that it all just morphs into one, you know, noise that you just go, whatever. So I can’t just pick out one.

Yes. So this one feels, it’s very recent. I wouldn’t say it’s the best thing I’ve ever heard. But certainly in the last six months or so, yes, it was in a coaching session that I had before a very large event that Bokeh was hosting. And I was running it. And I thought, wow, this is big. You know, this is, this was before I was COO. And so I felt it very keenly, wanted to make a good impression, all of that. And I was chatting to her about it. And she told me about the corporate athletes.

She said to me, Leila, if you were about to run a race or a marathon or you doing the Olympics, you know, how would you prepare for it? And I was like, well, I would sleep well, I’d eat well, I’d train really hard, exercise, you know, have space to rest and recuperate. And she went, yeah. So why in your corporate world, when you’ve got a big thing that you’re preparing for, are you eating badly, sleeping badly, working all hours that God sends and not taking time to recuperate? She’s amazing. She is absolutely amazing. And she’s given me a lot of brilliant advice over the last three years. She’s definitely a reason that I’ve got to where I’ve got to. But that for me was absolutely brilliant. And that allowed me to take my foot off the gas, focus on what I needed to do to be the best version of myself at this big event that we were hosting. And I tell as many people as possible about it because none of us think about that.

when you’re stressed, you’re right there, you’re really allowing everything that you shouldn’t be doing to take a priority. so yeah, that’s the best piece of advice I’ve had recently.

Toni Collis:

What was the last book you read and would you recommend it?

Leila Kassner:

So the last book I read was, it’s called The Anxious Generation and it’s by Jonathan Haidt and it’s all about the link between children no longer being play-based than being phone-based and what’s happening with smartphones, social media, overprotective parenting and the impact that that’s having on young people’s health and it’s quite profound. Again, it’s quite a heavy-going book and as a parent, kind of makes you bit anxious. But that’s why I read it because I have two young children and I want to figure out how do I parent them in this new world without being royally unfair and not allowing them phones or smart, know, smartphones or social media and all of that and get the balance right. And I think most parents would say that they haven’t got the balance right. What is the balance? I don’t know, but it was a very interesting book. It’s good food for thought. So I would recommend it.

Toni Collis:

Well, thank you. I’ll put a link to that in the show notes for everybody. So if you’re interested, go head over to the show notes and grab that. How can people connect with you and find out more about what you do?

Leila Kassner:

So you can connect with me on LinkedIn, I’m just Leila Kassner. You can also go through to the Boku website, there’s a bio on there all about me and about the other leaders in the team as well.

Toni Collis:

Fabulous, thank you. Any final thoughts you’d like to leave us with today?

Leila Kassner:

Yeah, I think I would say for any women that are listening, whether leaders, whether just starting out in your career, whether halfway through your career and thinking how, you know, how do I keep growing and can I do it? I would just say that you have a voice and it’s very powerful. Don’t wait for permission to speak up, to use your opinions, to make yourself heard, because when you do that, you’re creating space, not just for yourself. but also helping to carve that path for others. And that’s really important. And I think if we’re all just pushing for that little bit of change every day, we will get there. When we will get there, I don’t know, but we will get there. yeah, don’t limit yourself. Make sure you speak up.

Toni Collis:

I do think that is a beautiful way to wrap up this conversation because, you know, I always say, it’s so cliche, but be the change you want to see in the world. And I think one of the things that subtly I hadn’t really thought of until you just said that last statement is it isn’t just, you know, about changing it.

because of, you know, we want the world to be better for women. It’s actually the fact the world is always changing around us anyway. You mentioned there about your kids and the anxious generation. The world is always changing. So we need to drive the change, not just because we’re women, but because we’re women, because we see what’s possible. So I think the final note I’m going to leave everybody with today is drive change because of who you are, not because you need more, not because you’re a woman fighting the system but drive the change because it is what we do as humans. But be conscious with it. Drive change, have a voice and go out and have an impact on the world. Thank you for listening. Thank you for being here. If you’ve liked what we’ve talked about today, please do hit like, subscribe, leave a comment if you’re on YouTube. That really helps us get in front of more people like you. So the more you can do there, we just get rewarded by little bits of free action from you. So please do that and go and be a change agent.