Leading Without a Title: Michele Doyle on Cross-Functional Influence, AI, and Recognition

Speaker 1  0:00  
You don't need a title to lead. You don't even need a seat at the executive table yet to start being recognized as a strategic, high impact leader. In today's episode, we're diving into what real influence looks like with Michelle Doyle, the VP of data at senos. Michelle's story is one of building executive presence without chasing traditional power stretchers. She started off in healthcare. She's worked in FinTech and wealth management, but today she's the high performing leader of cross functional teams in FinTech and fermentation tech. She's proof that your leadership brand starts long before your job title catches up. Today we're talking about how to lead when you're not the boss, building strategic visibility in data engineering and operations, how our emotional regulation and psychological safety are the most important, if under appreciated, power tools as a leader, and the truth about getting recognized at work, especially if you're the one holding a tool together behind the scenes. If you've ever wondered how to get noticed, how to influence across silos, how to be taken seriously in rooms when you're not the loudest voice. This one is for you. Let's dive on in. Welcome to the leading women in tech podcast, the show that celebrates women in technology leadership. I'm your host, Tony Collis, and this podcast is the result of my passion for building better tech by diversifying the leadership of the technology sector. Join me on this journey as I discuss all things leadership, what it takes to be innovative, breaking through the glass ceiling be a great leader, and how to navigate the unique experiences we face as women in tech. So sit back, grab your headphones and get ready to be inspired to become a better leader.

Unknown Speaker  1:46  
Welcome to the show, Michelle. Thank you for joining us today.

Speaker 2  1:49  
Hey Tony. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to be on Oh, absolutely

Speaker 1  1:54  
wonderful to have you here. Let's start with your career journey. It's unique. It's started in psychology, from what you've told me moving into tech leadership and how it's about the innovation in the fermentation industry and using AI, not a combination I expected to hear in 2025 I have to tell you. So tell us a little bit about how you got to where you are today. What helped you navigate the transitions you've had in your career, and how has your non traditional background shaped

Unknown Speaker  2:23  
you as a leader? Sure.

Speaker 2  2:25  
I guess you could say that my career being non linear is a bit of an understatement. I started off in psychology. I worked there for many years. I became an occupational therapist. I did that for many years. I then went into technology because I needed health insurance. After the birth of my first child, I learned SQL. I got hooked on SQL. I moved into data systems and analytics, pretty much on my own time, and was then very generously mentored at the company I was with. So I worked a lot of hours. I stayed really curious. I built some technical expertise over many, many many years until I was the person that people called for answers. And sometimes getting curious about the things that are really foundational and learning them in detail can be really beneficial, because they make you indispensable, because not everybody knows those things. They take them for granted. Foundations are important, learning those systems that were important to the businesses I was in, inside and out, was a big entry point for me. So my mentors definitely helped, but it was curiosity and delivery and a whole lot of work ethic and being dependable that built a reputation for me in the firms I was in, and also I built my network. So by simply by investing in it. I found that being generous with ideas and support and credit with my peers gave me an opportunity to take on additional projects, move from different parts of the organization, from operations into technology. And there was a lot of movement there, though I stayed in one company for quite some time. I had many, many roles. That variety of roles kind of gave me a systems thinking mindset, and that built off of the variety of industries I had worked in. So nothing exists in isolation. Everything is a system. You push one thing here, something may fall over there, but what I got was I was able to learn in OT decomposition of goals into requisite needs. I was able to do presentations as part of psych, work with clients, teams and organizations in both healthcare and psych. And these were all highly transferable skills. So those professional skills that I think a lot of people at shoe don't and don't think are as important, those are the highly transferable skills. Technology changes all the time, all the time. Yes, to relearn it all the time. And I've been doing this for a long time. I mean, everything old is new again in technology, but those skills are important. Important career making and highly transferable. Yeah.

Speaker 1  5:03  
I mean, I think actually the systems thinking mindset, you're saying that you've had many roles. I think people don't understand what it really means to have a systems thinking mindset, but you hit on it so beautifully there, which is like seeing how it all sticks together, right? What is the system in the business? Is a great first stab when you say you had all those roles, was that accidental, or was it strategic, or a little bit of both?

Speaker 2  5:26  
Some of it was accidental. And a really interesting story was, when I first went to Commonwealth financial, I was there as a data analyst, but I was really just checking data. So I was looking at one system, looking at another system, making sure that data is stuck. And my supervisor left after six months, and then they asked me to help interview for her replacement. And after about 10 interviews, I was like, I can do this. I can do this way better than any of these candidates. So that was a little bit of an accident, and then a little bit purposeful. And I said, you know, I don't think you should interview. I think you should put me in that role. And in talking with my my mentor there, I was like, is that an okay thing to say? Because I didn't even know, like, can I put myself forward like that? And she was like, Oh, hell yeah, you should definitely do that. So, so do it. We did. Well,

Speaker 1  6:16  
actually, that brings me back to the other point I wanted to bring up you mentioned at the beginning of this that you were generously mentored. What did you mean by that? By the way, I was thinking mentoring with women leaders is something we have to be careful about, because we're often over mentored. We're mentored when we should be advocated for, but equally, we're also not mentored by the right people. So what do you mean by generously mentored?

Speaker 2  6:39  
So I think you bring up a really good point. Mentored is not just being taught. Mentored is being brought alongside. Yeah, and I was mentored by being brought alongside. And I had many excellent mentors, far too many to say on the show, but they did things like advocate for me in rooms I was not in, and they advocated without me asking to be advocated for because I was still kind of a novice and didn't know that I needed that. I had lots of great women mentors in leadership, and I had lots of great men mentors in leadership. And when I say that they were generous, they were generous, not just with their time and their knowledge, but with their vulnerability and authenticity, and I know how rare that is, and I know what it can cost a leader to say I was afraid, or this is a place where I failed once too, and to be open and honest with others so that they can learn in advance about where some of the pitfalls Are, is so generous, and I had that so much

Unknown Speaker  7:42  
if you were to

Speaker 1  7:44  
give someone listening to the show some advice about how to get the right kind of mentorship, because I know that's not the main point of our topic today today, but it is something I see as a problem and as an opportunity. If you were to talk to a woman and say, Okay, this is how to ask for the right kind of mentor, or how to make sure you walk away from the wrong kind of mentorship, or encourage it to be done in the right way. Or what advice would you give?

Speaker 2  8:10  
What a great question. I would tell people that there is no one mentor. There are many mentors at different parts of your career, and that can help you with different skill sets and building out your repertoire of expertise. It's a little bit different for everybody, because folks have different needs and ways of being approached. And I was not at the beginning, very purposeful in finding my mentors. My mentors found me also. I would look for the sounds, the sounds kind of Woo, but I look for someone I could vibe with, someone I had a connection with, someone that I felt like I could be myself with and not perform for. I was performing enough, right? I wanted to be honest in the relationship I had with my mentor and say all the things that you say in your heads, you know, I find that women leaders and aspiring leaders can get in their heads a lot.

Unknown Speaker  9:08  
Yeah, that's why I have a job, I think.

Speaker 2  9:12  
And we, you know, we say, Oh, I'm too much, or I wasn't all that. All right, you know, you excoriate yourself after every big meeting. And the thing is, you're not too much. You didn't say a dumb question, and sometimes you just need another person to tell you that over and over again until you believe it. And sometimes that can be you, but a lot of times it's a mentor.

Speaker 1  9:31  
I think certainly early on, it takes an awful lot of work to be able to tell yourself that and really believe it. I think later on, you can start doing that for yourself, but I think it's a very rare skill in somebody young. Somebody young, especially in women, again, because we're told our entire lives that we're really valuable when we're making everybody else happy, and therefore we don't tell ourselves that we're any good at anything, I think.

Speaker 2  9:55  
And also in leadership, you're very rarely making people happy. And. You know, yeah, you're making hard decisions. You're telling people, no, you're telling your bosses, no, you're you're saying, you know, you have to be able to go to the mat for the good of an organization, your team, and not necessarily yourself. So I agree, it is really difficult when you're younger. I so you know, in that season of your career, you want to find someone who can help build you up in the middle season of your career, someone who can help shape you. That means they have to get to know you. So you asked, What kind of mentors to avoid? Don't find someone who's going to try to make you a cookie cutter of them, because you're not.

Speaker 1  10:37  
That's great advice. Don't be a cookie cutter of the mentor. Don't be somebody who Yeah, if you find yourself just for listeners, if you find yourself in a relationship where that person is pushing you to be a cooker, cutter, of them, part ways with that mentor. You don't need to have that mentorship. You just find a phrase, let go of that relationship. It's not going to do you any harm to let go, but it is doing you harm staying in there. I would say that's not mentorship. That's dictatorship. You get enough of that in the day job, right? Work is work is a day to hatred ship so Exactly.

Speaker 2  11:06  
And you know, mentors leave a mark on us, and you do? You want it to be a good mark, so be rigorous in your evaluation of those relationships. Don't be like, I'm just so lucky that I got a mentor. I'll take anyone that's not an okay thing for you. You need to be a little calculated. And this is what I'm looking for. This is what I hope to get out of it, and and then find your people. And I do really like the idea of having more than one, even at a time, somebody you can call for coffee and say, you know, I had this difficult situation, or I have to have a difficult conversation. And how should I approach this? It's important to have more than one voice in your ear as you, as you take on some of those challenges, 100%

Speaker 1  11:53  
Yeah, I love that. Well, what I would say is I would love to dive more in. I've got follow up questions on this, but we have other things I really, really want to dig into. So as much as this is fascinating, let's talk about some of your specialties, because one of the things that you and I have talked about previously is seeing data as a crossroads between engineering and operations. And this comes back to what you're saying before about being having that Systems Thinking mindset. You mentioned to me that you believe women are often able to really thrive at an intersection, one of these intersections being data between engineering and art. So what's going on here? How can we be recognized at this intersection? Why is it so important in your mind?

Speaker 2  12:35  
Sure, I think data is the connective tissue between engineering, product and operations, and I think women thrive here, not just because they have great professional skills like communication and empathy, but because we do bring really serious technical and analytical skills to the table. When you combine those skill sets, you get the ability to see big picture and telescope down to the detail that makes it up and that really gives you this big gestaltist view of what's happening in an organization. And that is valuable. It's an arresting combination of those areas of expertise and what can flow out of that. You know, better decisions, reduce risk, better delivery, happier and more productive teams. And that's because in a crossroads leadership like you're describing, you're seeing the technical and the operational and the business impact leaders need to see beyond their vertical. You need to shift from thinking like an individual contributor. And many of us in tech started out that way, and you should start that brain shift while you are still an individual

Speaker 1  13:39  
contributor. I think that right there, that point, there of one, we need to stop thinking like individual contributors, to be leaders. But more important, it starts while you're an individual contributor and thinking beyond your scope. I mean this again, one of the conversations I have on a pretty much daily basis with executive coaching clients. Why do you think we struggle with this? And I'm not saying we as in women. I'm seeing everybody. I think actually men are just as likely everybody struggles with moving from that icy mindset and this little narrow tube of this is it? This is what I do, and thinking beyond, why do we struggle? Well, I'm asking you, actually, as a psychologist

Speaker 2  14:18  
here as well. Let me tap into that background in systems thinking to answer your question. I think it is because it is human nature to want to succeed at what you're doing. And so we focus so you have a problem. You know, especially in technology, you're here to solve problems. You so that tech, technology culture, reinforces that you have a problem, you write some code, you finish it, you move on to the next problem. And so it is a very focused approach. It takes work to telescope back and set and look at a larger landscape than the problem you're trying to solve, and see how those fit together. When you're in a team, you're also focused on what's going to make the team successful, and that's okay. Again, you've got it doesn't. Lots of layers to pull back into. So I would say it's difficult, because it's not immediately going to make you more successful at the problem you're trying to solve. It's coin that you are putting towards a future withdrawal of expertise.

Speaker 1  15:18  
Yeah, I love that a coin you're putting towards future withdrawal expertise, such a brilliant way of explaining it. I really want again, everybody listening to this, the sooner you can think outside your box, the more impact you're going to have, and also the things you're doing inside your little box, you will do better simply because you have the bigger picture. So I really hope everybody listening hears that. I know we all struggle with it. I'm yet to meet somebody who doesn't struggle with that. Hey, quick interruption from me. If you're enjoying this conversation, can I ask a little favor? Please take a moment to like, subscribe, leave a rating and review wherever you're listening. It might not seem like much, but it really helps more women in tech discover the podcast and join these leadership conversations. And if something's really resonating with you, drop a comment that also helps us so much, or share this episode with somebody who needs to hear it. It means the world to us and me. My team are here to change the world one woman at a time. All right, back to the episode. Okay, let's talk about your industry. You are involved in what I would say is not an obvious tech industry. You're in the brewing industry, but you're using AI. So let's talk about this. How are you using AI in this space? Why is it a tech industry in the first place? What do we need to understand about integrating tech into non obvious fields such as this?

Speaker 2  16:38  
That's a great question. I had spent a lot of years in healthcare and finance and never expected to end up being in fluidics and brewing, but I am, and it's brilliant. You wouldn't expect craft beer to be an AI playground, but it sure is. And really, what we're looking at is a scientific process of fermentation that that's an exponential process, and you have people who are engaging in this to produce a product. So we want to make sure that they have enough signal, enough consistent and ongoing signal of what's happening in that process to make their businesses successful as successful as they can. And that means providing telemetry so they get real time insight into what's happening in these giant silver tanks in which they are fermenting, and they can track what's going on without seeing it or without having to bench test or lab test those samples. But once you know what's happening now, and you have a lot of good data, and we do well, then you can start to apply predictive analytics. And when we talk about AI, it's not just about, you know, the next version of chat GPT or llms or gpts. It's about things like data science and predictive analytics and machine learning models. So what we're doing is we're predicting fermentation processes to get to predict with more surety when they're going to end, and to improve consistency between batches that makes customers more successful, using sensor data, not just for how the beer is doing, but using it for predictive hardware maintenance, because we can figure out how well the cooling jackets are working overtime, yeah, also tracking energy and water use for sustainability and ingredients use and what that's good for the planet, but it's also really good for brewers, because those things are expensive, and creating predictive digital twins that will allow for virtual innovation in pet constrained spaces like biotech and also brewing, and that just lets us Build a virtual model of what's happening in a fermentation, and then you can change variables and see what's going to come out. And then you can try a new beer without ever putting anything in one of those big silver fermenters.

Unknown Speaker  18:52  
That's amazing. Can you

Speaker 1  18:53  
also predict when a brew is going to go wrong earlier than the historical tests could?

Speaker 2  19:00  
That's a that's a great one. We do have benchmarking. So if you are a brewer and you make a recipe over and over again, we we benchmark that for you, and we can also benchmark it against similar styles within the industry. And we also know the science of brewing really well. We have scientists on our staff, and we can say, Oh, the pressure is going too high. It's going to kill the yeast. You're going to have a problem, you know, some gasket didn't open up and let the CO two out. So yes, we can find those early signals and we alert them to the brewer, and that saves their batches. And you know, I think one of the things we hear is, you know, brewers will often come to us and say, oh, yeah, once or twice a year, you save me from losing a batch. And that's great. That's what we're here for. We want to, want to do it even better.

Speaker 1  19:54  
Yeah, 100% I there's so many industries like this where it seems unobvious, like, how. Would you enter a tech into that industry, and then when you do, it changes everything right?

Speaker 2  20:06  
And it seems, it seems like this is a non obvious place to start with, AI, but I would challenge that a bit. The Breann community is naturally collaborative, creative and eager to improve. So they embrace collaboration and experimentation, and because the community has that culture already that makes them ideal partners for this kind of exploration. So senos taps into that spirit. I think AI adoption works best when it starts with curiosity and solving real business problems, not forcing tech for tech sake, or starting with a tooled solution and trying to find a place to put it. And you know, those things combined mean that we're co creating with brewers and scientists out in the field, not dictating solutions. And so then adoption becomes simple, easy and effective.

Speaker 1  20:57  
I love that approach, like focus on solving problems rather than how can we fit this tech into this square peg? It's beautiful way of looking at and I know this taps into something else we've spoken about, which is your company's current approach to problem solving is something that you were struck by when you joined. You described it to me as joyous and curious and collaborative and collaborative. I've heard a lot curious less so, but it's there you are. The first person who has ever said the word joyous or joyful in relation to problem solving. So tell me a little bit about this. What's going on here. How has this shifted you as a leader working in such a company?

Speaker 2  21:35  
I have to say it's utterly changed me. You know, earlier in my career, I focused a lot on books and best practices on how to solve problems. And, you know, because I was immature in my career, and then I started to gain some expertise and leaned more into human connection and psychology. And what I'm noticing, one of the reasons I came to senos was because of the people in the organization and how they're trying to solve these problems. And what I hear is, you know, meeting people, where they are helping change behavior and execute well, aligning strengths and processes and not shorting the vision. Really think big and approaching, approaching goals and that vision, not with the idea of, okay, that's where I want to go. But what can I get? What can I realistically do? Don't short that say, what's the next step I can take to get towards that and just keep marching towards it, and really looking at, looking at challenges as kind of a great big present, because you get to try to solve this problem, and that's the joyous nature of it, like the learning is a gift, and being able to do it with smart, creative, wonderful people is another gift, and that makes it so joyous. And I, I was always a person who was very formulaic, you know, I've got a plan for everything. I've got the, you know, I organize, I plan, I write the notes, but being able to just dive in without a net and say, Yeah, let's go do this, that's new for me, and that's what I got coming to Santos. It's joyful. Has

Speaker 1  23:12  
that grown you to the VP you are today? Like, how important was that for you to step up and be the influential leader you are today?

Speaker 2  23:20  
I think it was huge, because it unbound me. It unbound me from plans. It unbound me from the the thinking that I had that if I couldn't see the end, I couldn't go there. And so I'm a lot more willing to take risk, which is important in a leader. I'm a lot more willing to say, let's try the crazy idea that just might work. And I'm a lot more willing to give the reins to the other creative folks in my organization when they say, you know, I think I got this and let them go.

Speaker 1  23:54  
I mean, I do think a huge part of what's going on is the basics of psychological safety, right? You have to be psychologically safe to move from failure being, oh my gosh, to failure being, oh, that's exciting. What can we learn from that? And, you know, we talk about embrace failure. You know, people are talking about this all the time online. It's very different when you're in a company where failure is only frowned upon, or when, although your boss is trying really hard to be like, yes, we can learn from this. There is that. But what about revenue? What about profit? How have you built psychological safety? Do you think, as you now coming at it from the VP level, what have you done to really get your team to feel that they can fail and you've got them

Speaker 2  24:38  
well, when they fail, show them that you've got them. Speak up, be be loud, have their backs. Be the windshield that other feedback splashes across. If you want people to dare then you've got to have their back and you've got to protect them from those other questions around, like revenue and you know, time. Them to market and things like that. That's my job, right? That's my job to answer for those things. It's not my organizations. It means I encourage them to build a support network outside of me, like everybody, including leadership, needs a pressure relief valve, right? We talked about mentorship. And also it means, like I, you know, I was saying I was mentored generously. I think generosity is an underappreciated quality in a lot of workspaces, and I want to create a generous fertile field for people to be innovative and be bold and try new things, because that's what's going to make our organization successful, and that's my job, right, to allow them to shine. And I would say also as a leader, one of the things you have to do is stay grounded and authentic so that they can think clearly under pressure. As a leader, your own emotional regulation is key. And if I, you know, if pressure comes to me, I need to absorb the pressure. It should not travel to the people who work in my organization. And I should also manage up, because the, you know, everybody in an organization is human, and we're all going to have a point where we're like, this has not been my best day. And again, generosity in that space is siding up alongside the person who needs a little bit of support, whether that is your leadership team or the people in your own organization. I think women are very good in regular life at coming alongside the people who need them, and it's an under appreciated skill within an organization, and as you are a person that is leaned on for that kind of regulation problem solving that is a leadership skill, tie your name to that, be that person because it will get you into rooms you wouldn't otherwise, 100%

Speaker 1  27:03  
I emotional regulation, managing up, I think are underpins so much of our ability to thrive and our team's ability to thrive. Everything starts with us. We're the one thing we can control fully. So start by controlling yourself, and that is emotional regulation. 101, although you'd have the self awareness to realize you need to regulate in the first place. So I love that. I got one final question for you, what's next for you? You're obviously an exceptionally self aware leader, somebody who's embraced so much. How are you now going to grow? I truly believe that growth is the bit that keeps us going. When we don't grow, we get bored. So how are you thinking about growth, about challenge and about learning at this point in your career?

Speaker 2  27:48  
Well, definitely changing industries has given me a lot of fertile ground to grow. I'm trying to learn the science and new ways of working with data and you know, working with AI, and also, the rate of technical change is extremely fast in the AI space right now, so there's a lot of learning to do, even if I were just going to try to stay still. So for me, what I would like to do is gain a little bit more mastery over this new area that I've stepped into. It's so interesting. It's so much fun. So again, I'm going to step into that and enjoy ring every second of fun that I can from it. I would also say, as AI and data start to collapse in on each other a little bit in terms of systems and foundations bridging the gap, there is something I'm very interested in. The more you know, AI eats data. That's what it does. And data has to be in good you have you need to have enough of it. It needs to be in good quality. You need to know what it means. It needs a context. It needs an ontology. These are emerging spaces, and people are trying a lot of new things, so that kind of experimentation is very tantalizing

Speaker 1  29:06  
to me. I love that, and I love this, just embracing the change it is going it is going fast, and I think a lot of people are scared of it, but I think the more we can embrace it, the more we get to control it as well, the more we get to decide how this change is going to happen, rather than giving in and like somebody else to control it, that's, that's a whole other conversation, though. I've lost this so much, but I do actually have one final question for you, which is, why have you done all this? Like, what's driven you? You're obviously extraordinary in terms of all the different things you've done and you've achieved and that you've embraced what's what's the driver behind you? Do you know,

Speaker 2  29:44  
I know a little bit of it, some of it is very functional. I have a family that I'm responsible for, and I wanted to create a career that that would take care of my family. I've got four kids and a husband that I'm responsible for, and I take that really. Seriously. And I think a lot of men feel that a lot, and I'm the sole brennwder In my house, and I have been for my whole career. Another part of it is I really love data, and I want everybody to love it like I do. I think it is a beautiful way to describe the world and make sense of the world, and and I get so excited talking about it, I could. I would just, even if I started my career over again, I know I would end up right back here, because this is where the fun is. And so I've always been like a flower turning my head towards the light. I've always ended up, in all of my careers working with the data, you know, working in OT, I was in charge of the data and the reports, you know, working in Psych, there's an enormous amount of data and statistics that you have to do. It was a thread through all of my earlier careers, and at some point, I think my back brain just decided to go all in.

Speaker 1  30:52  
I love it. I love it so much. Well, we better move on to the quick fire round. You ready for this? All right, hit me. Okay. What is the worst piece of advice you've ever been given?

Speaker 2  31:03  
The worst piece of advice I was ever given was, if you're good at what you'll do, you'll be noticed all by yourself. That is not true. Visibility is intentional, and you need to tie outcomes and accomplishments to yourself. Yeah, if

Speaker 1  31:16  
anybody's been listening to this podcast more than like, one week, I hope you know this already. You have to make yourself visible. It doesn't just happen. What is the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Unknown Speaker  31:27  
You don't have to be the leader to lead.

Speaker 2  31:30  
That you can find influence if, even if you are not the named leader.

Speaker 1  31:34  
100% we didn't get time to dig into that one. I wanted to, but yeah, hear this, people, you don't need to be the leader to lead. In fact, I think the best leaders are the ones who start before they give them permission, before they give them the title, before they give them the responsibility you've just taken. And that trains you to lead in an extraordinary way, really does.

Speaker 2  31:53  
And the decision to do that makes you a leader. And I have to give credit to Erin stolato For that, for that quote. She is the origin of that quote.

Speaker 1  32:02  
Okay, I didn't know that. I'm a big, a big fan of of that quote, though. What is the last book you read or listened to if you're a listener, and would you

Speaker 2  32:11  
recommend it? Sure I have two books. The book I read for fun was the MurderBot series by Martha wells, which was very snarky and beautifully I love that.

Unknown Speaker  32:21  
Yes, so much.

Unknown Speaker  32:26  
And what's the knob so fun one

Speaker 2  32:29  
I want I read. Just finished reading for for work, your AI Survival Guide by Sol Rashidi, which is about real world AI deployments and the lessons learned there, I would recommend both of them.

Speaker 1  32:42  
I've not come across that letter one, MurderBot series. You can tell I like my sci fi because I have come across that one. How can people connect with you? Find out more about what you do. Generally, share your wisdom.

Speaker 2  32:55  
Sure people can find me on LinkedIn. I also share updates on senos work and bringing AI and analytics into brewing, all protein and other industries at the cenos.com website, fabulous.

Speaker 1  33:08  
Well, if you are interested in Michelle, go ahead over to the show notes, and I'll make sure those links are in there. Michelle. Are any final thoughts you want to share today before we wrap up?

Speaker 2  33:16  
Yes, find your people. Learn from them. Don't apologize for being yourself in the right environment. You will take risks and bloom, and you will be that leader. So grow that system of support you can live in, and take steps to cultivate it because you're not too much. You don't ask stupid questions.

Speaker 1  33:34  
What a beautiful way to end it. Thank you so much. I just, I just want to just point out that final bit, you don't ask stupid questions. It is such a powerful thing to remind us all of there's so much in today's episode. I just want to remind you of before we wrap up. I love this idea of joyous leadership. Be the windshield for your team. Be the generous leader. Be bold, get your team to try new things. All of that is building psychological safety, but that starts with you realizing you Don't ask stupid questions, as Michelle just shared with us. So I want all of you to lean into today's episode. Stay grounded. Stay authentic. Look at emotional regulation. Don't be afraid of managing up. Don't make it wrong. Everybody has a bad day. They're just some of the key things I really want you to take forward. And I want you to pick one nugget from today's session, whether that's you're going to lean into joy in failure, whether you're going to become better windshield for your team, whether you're going to be more generous in some way, and all the different ways we've discussed that, pick one thing, make a change, and do that for you, because the ripple effect that happens when you do that is truly extraordinary. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next time you.